A Response to "Pat: for pete's sake, SHUT UP!!"
Link to the original article
Patrice,
I appreciate your willingess to give Pat the benefit of the doubt; I have no idea how I'd fare having to cover such a complex subject as the situation in Haiti within the limits of a television program.
I'm a little concerned about the comparison of what's going on there with a Christian's bout with cancer. It's been established through other posts and links that God does use natural disasters as both judgement and warning, and, while the Christian population in Haiti is around 84% according to Wikipedia, any missionary there can tell you they've retained their voodoo belief systems and tried to force Christianity into them (thereby ignoring the first and greatest commandment).
God has declared destruction on enemies of the faith before. His warning to Nineveh came in the form of a man, and when Jonah pronounced God's judgement on the city's inhabitants, they turned from their sin and called on God. I don't see why God could not be doing the same thing with Haiti at the present time; tragedy makes people contemplate eternity and their own mortality in ways that being drunk with sin will never do.
From what I've read about your friend, though, there was no suspicion of wanton sin or disobedience in his life. In his case, he entered into (albeit to a greater extent than what many of us will ever endure) what all believers are guaranteed throughout the New Testament, which is sharing in the sufferings of Christ. Enduring suffering draws us closer to Him and shapes our godly character.
On a macro level, things are pretty simple: God pronounces judgement on nations that are disobedient and blessings on nations that obey Him and His commandments. On an individual level, the situation is far more complex. Here, He lets rain fall on the just and the unjust. He lets the wicked prosper for a time (this is the rain mentioned in Matthew 5:45), that they may be given the opportunity to repent. For those that do not turn from their ways, however, He promises a dark end (Psalm 73). For the believer, we are promised His provision for our needs, but also suffering. We endure the trials of this life, for it is in our end that prosperity lies.
posted by DrastiContrast @ 10:15 AM
19 comments
19 Comments:
Excellent post, thank you.
The US has for some time now been going down a path that is independent of God and His protection. If we continue as we are going we will face something similar. We have many examples of God's judgement on His people in the Bible. Too many Christians are ignoring the warnings.
"It's been established through other posts and links that God does use natural disasters as both judgement and warning, . . "
Exactly how do "posts and links" establish anything? If I post somewhere that there is a china teapot in orbit around Mars does this "establish" it? I think this illustrates perfectly the difference I referred to on one of Patrice's threads of the difference between personal opinion and statements of fact.
"any missionary there can tell you they've retained their voodoo belief systems and tried to force Christianity into them (thereby ignoring the first and greatest commandment)."
The Haitians may not be perfect but, if they are 84% Christian, surely Jesus would give them 8 out of 10 for trying and only send a small earthquake?
quedula,
Please understand that I am responding to Patrice's post on her blog, therefore I am doing so with the knowledge that we hold certain assumptions in common including God's existence, His will expressed through His Word, the Bible, and the infallibility of said Word. My arguments reference excerpts from the Bible that speak to God's character and will. Once again, these things are not matters of opinion and can be proven out (I mentioned a couple of ways in a previous reply as well), but I really don't want to have to start from scratch on every post with every person with whom I have not had a basic ontological discussion; I hope you will be understanding of that. While I desire to provide as thorough a reply as possible, employment, marriage, and a host of other things that come before my personal time on the web require the employment of brevity whenever available.
As to your second reply, (which sounded sarcastic to me) God has described Himself as jealous in more than one place in His Word. Marriage itself was designed to show mankind a reflection of the relationship that God wants with His people, and the first tenet of both institutions is faithful exclusivity. The Old Testament is rife with examples of the nation of Israel's unfaithfulness to God. They worshiped many idols, and God warned them many times to turn from them. But, there comes a point at which God knows that the people are stuck in their ways; drunk in their sin. The only way to sober them up is with a sobering event. Most of the time, God used captivity in a foreign land to awaken them to their need for the God who can truly deliver them. Whatever He did, it was to bring His people back to Him.
What's missing from this discussion is the understanding that God is doing this because He loves the people He's chastising. If God didn't care about them, He would let them do whatever they want, get into whatever trouble they wanted, and let them ride out the consequenses to their own destruction. Here is another basic relationship at work; God's role as The Father. He loves His people as His own children.
I would like to think that, because Haiti claims such a high percentage of Christians, God is chastising them to turn them from the worship of their false gods. A small disaster doesn't have the emotional impact of a large one; being a follower of Christ, I trust God's action is a proportional response. Incidentally, Haiti's population is approximately 8.7 million. With a death toll estimated at up to 200,000 people, that would be about 2.3% of all Haitians, far more merciful than the 1.56 mil that 8/10 would amount to.
I would like to add that God does curse as well. When a nation hates Him and refuses to turn from its ways, He allows them to get worse; far worse, until their wickedness is world famous. At this point, they have more than earned their judgement, and their destruction becomes the capstone of their fame.
Carol,
Thank you for your encouraging reply. I can't help but agree with you and hope that, when disaster comes, it is to rebuke and not to condemn (we do seem to be storing up wrath, don't we?)
DrastiContrast,
Thank you for interrupting your busy schedule to respond to my posts.
I assure you a basic ontological discussion is not required as your starting point is made clear in your opening sentence. In common with the middle eastern bronze age scribes, you assume the existence of some supernatural entity and on that assumption erect an edifice of dogma. The difference between you and the ancient writers is that they at least had the excuse of ignorance about the workings of the natural world, indeed were in outright terror of plagues, earthquakes, storms, famines.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not to present them as authoritative. A very large section of the christian community prefer to interpret their religion in an entirely different way including I believe Patrice and the Church of England.
Your extraordinary need to find a way to blame the Haitians for the natural disaster that has befallen them reveals more about your own personality than the validity of your beliefs.
Interesting article:-
http://www.slate.com/id/2241877
I usually don't comment on Christian blogs, but I will make an exception here. Pat Robertson said something horrible, disgusting, filthy and more importantly utterly amoral about Haiti. He has no excuse whatsoever, and his title of "reverend" sure does not give him any legitacy over what he said or any protection for the well-deserved criticism he is getting.
Notice how he introduced his subject. "Napoeon III or whatever". He can't even get his facts straight. In other words, he is BSing. His knowledge of history, or lack of, is as apalling as his ignorance of sismology. I guess God made sure that Haïti was crossed by two tectonic plaques, which would create the earthquake we know...about two centuries after the Haitiens revolted against the French. Either God (if he exists, which I seriously doubt) had nothing to do with it, either he was slow. And even IF God had anything to do with the earthquake, especially IF he wanted to punish Haiti, then this God would be unworthy of worship.
But dimwit Pat is also ignorant of Haiti as a country. Haitian people are often deeply religious, they are mainly devout Catholics (maybe that counts as Satanist for Pat), but there are also many Protestant Haitians and adepts of various Christian charismatic movements. And some good their faith did to them! Frankly, I would not even dare to lay the blame of what happened on them. That is simply obscene. Defending Pat Robertson is just as inexcusable and frankly immoral. But I guess that is the Christian way: confusing moral with faith.
quedula ( I sense sarcasm again),
Knowing how the world works (which we don't; we can't even predict the weather) doesn't mean there isn't a creator; in fact, many scientists have found their faith strengthened in learning about the marvelous intricacies of the mechanisms of science and mathematics. I think you'll find that all civilizations came to the conclusion (not the assumption) that there is a Higher Power; atheism is a relatively new concept. My pursuit is not to find a way to blame the Haitians for this disaster, but to point out that their behavior is a possible reason for it. Most Christians would agree that all of mankind is deserving of God's judgement (that is, in fact a biblical principle). It is my hope, as it appears to be playing out according to some news agencies, that this event will bring many Haitians to repentance and/or saving faith.
When I use scripture to explain my beliefs, I am not using my own authority, but the Word of God; it is His authority upon which I stand. He is the ultimate authority under which all will submit when the fullness of time has been reached. You may not accept that authority, but you also can't deny my right to it. Your psychoanalysis in the last sentence is also unwelcome, unhelpful, and avoiding the issue.
The article you cited makes the same faulty assumption as you did in your previous reply that because the design of something can be discovered, there must me no designer. That is, of course, illogical, unreasonable, and immediately disprovable (knowing how to bake a cake does not preclude a baker).
As to your last post, why is a Baptist preacher asking questions that he knows only God can answer? I am, again, arguing that Pat's explanation is plausible and with precedent, not fact. God has established blessings for nations that follow His commandments, and curses for nations that disobey. Haiti, much like most other nations, is deserving of judgement based on God's Word.
Guillame,
I sense a lot of anger here, but I would prefer more arguments. I can't say whether or not Pat was right in his comments, but I can say he could be right. Why is it preposterous that God (being by nature all knowing) could have set Haiti exactly where it is for such a time as this? How could God have nothing to do with it? If He knows all, then He knows everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen. He knows the "reactions" for each of His actions and how everything will play out based on what He's made; anything less would make Him incompetent and, therefore, not God. Why would that make Him unworthy of worship? (I will explain this further in a moment)
The faith of the Haitian Christians has saved their souls; that's the good it did them. Whether they die screaming in a pile of rubble, or peacefully in their beds in their sleep, those who truly loved the Lord will be with Him in heaven; their death and suffering on this earth a pin-prick in time compared to an eternity in paradise.
The obscenity in this discussion is our ignorance of sin. Evil is a disease; an infection. It permeates our bones; it rots our souls. Moreso than that, God's presence is so pure, so perfect, that it destroys sin the way light evaporates darkness; evil simply cannot exist in the presence of God. That means that none of us can be with God in our sinful state; the evil must be cleansed or it will be destroyed.
God, through His Son, has created a way for us to be pure and clean; Jesus Christ. His death on a cross 2000 years ago was a death on our behalf; taking the evil things we have done and suffering our destruction for us. We only have our time on this Earth to accept His gift, and too many of us are too busy or too distracted to even think about it, let alone receive it. We all need to awaken to the realization that today may be the last opportunity to escape eternal destruction. Whatever God's reason for bringing about the earthquake in Haiti, that realization is sinking in right now for many Haitians, and the result is that thousands of them are praying to God for help. He is our help, and I hope and pray that the believers there are making the most of this opportunity to lead others to saving faith.
To everyone reading this post,
You may not like what I've written here; you may even find it cruel or heartless. It is not my intention to harm, but to simply be brief and to the point.
I ask you to think back to a time when you lost someone you loved or a when tragedy occured close enough to you that you were shaken; did it make you think about what was really worth doing with your life? Did it make you think about friends and family with whom you lost touch? Did it make you think about what might be waiting after this life? Was it cold and empty? Was it heavy and terrifying? In the midst of the shock and loss, God was making you aware of a greater loss; the loss of your relationship with Him.
We were meant to be with God, but our evil thoughts and deeds have separated us from Him, and that separation will ultimately result in death. The answer is Jesus Christ, who took all our sin and died for us on a cross. Surrendering to Christ means restoration of that relationship and freedom from destruction. I pray that you will think on these things and accept His offer. God is patient, but we only have as long as we're here to redeem the gift. Do you know when you're going to die?
As I have said before DC we cannot have a rational discussion if you can only resort to the assertion of religious dogma. If I were to respond in kind I would simply argue that Satan exists and that he punished the Haitians for being so Christian. There is no more evidence for the existence of the "god" defined by your beliefs than there is for Satan, or any of the 1000s of other gods that have been worshipped down the ages.
The "psychoanalysis", that you objected to, was nothing so sophisticated. It was not intended as a personal attack but was directly to the point. Human beings are notoriously susceptible to hallucinatory beliefs. You are not unique. If you had been born in India you would be worshipping Lord Krishna; if in Afghanistan, Allah; if in Viking Norway, Wotan; if in Ancient Greece, Zeus. Each comes with a different ready-made set of religious dogmas: all the product of Man's fertile imagination.
Relevant article:-
http://unreasonablefaith.com/2010/01/25/religious-imperialism/
I am angry because I have good reasons to be and I backed it up by pretty sound arguments: Robertson blamed the victims of a terrible catastrophe and he shown no proof whatsoever of the claims he is making He can't even get his history right! When you have no knowledge of the subject matter, prudence should tell you to shut up. And since Robertson makes the claim, then he should show the evidence which backs it up. Starting by the very existence of God, obviously.
Now you resort to religious dogma to justify Robertson's words and to explain the tragedy that happened in Haiti. But the goodness of an action is measured in the effect it has here, not in an hypothetical Heaven. If something good comes out of the earthquake, it is the solidarity and compassion we should all share with the Haitian people. But for this, we must acknowledge that what happened was deeply unjust. Something you obviously fail to even consider, blinded by your faith.
There is, quedula, plenty of evidence for the existence of God. More so than false gods because most of the other gods have lost their worshippers; they weren't even strong enough to keep their own, let alone expand!
For the vast majority of history, the most intelligent men on earth have come to the conclusion from looking at the majesty and diversity of creation that there must be a Creator. It's only since Darwin published his theory that mankind has been able to grab onto their first great excuse for ignoring what had previously been an unignorible reminder of His existence. It's still absurd to think that all of this happened by chance, and even more absurd to think that, since we can understand the mechanics of some of the earth's biology, there must have been no one to make those mechanics. Even archaeologists that find the remains of machines that don't work know that someone must have built them.
quedula,
The reason that my wife became a Christian is because God did a miracle in her life. He healed her of sores all over her legs that would dry up and bleed; she couldn't even sit down. The best doctors in Brazil couldn't cure her, and I mean the best; my wife's family was rich. She tried everything including the voodoo stores in Sao Paulo, and nobody could help her. Nobody, that is, until Jesus. When she went to the church, the pastor prayed over her; over the next month, the sores went away, and they never came back. When she told her mother about the church, her mom went there for prayer too; she had several large (baseball size) tumors in her abdomen. The next time she went to the doctor, they were gone.
This is the church that my wife and I attended in Brazil: http://www.impd.com.br/milagres.asp These miracles are real; anyone who gives a testimony of their healing on tv must have pre and post medical records to back up what they're saying. Not to mention that my wife has a testimony from that church as well. She's in the process of cataloging all the recordings she can find of the miracles in this church; they're happening every day.
I have yet to read of such miracles coming from any other faith. What I have read about and heard about from my family is that any unexplainable phenomenon claiming authority for another religion must submit to the one true God. The voodoo stores in Sao Paulo made my wife better for a couple weeks; then the sores came back. When Jesus healed her, she was truly healed. She went with her sister to Indonesia for a vacation. While there, she heard about a show where the entertainer worked with and handled fire, but miraculously didn't get burned. As she and her sister prayed outside the shows location, the entertainer announced that he would be unable to perform that evening. No reason given; he just couldn't do it. My wife and I know the reason.
finally, quedula,
You have made the assumption that Christianity is just like any other false religion; it's not false. God spoke through people to write His opus, and thousands of years later, it's still here and His church is still growing. I thank God that I grew up in a Christian home and didn't have to go through the process of unlearning Hinduism or Buddhism, etc. I still had to unlearn a lot, though; western society has already been catastrophically polluted by evolutionary thinking.
Everyone knows that God exists, and when things are at there worst, that fact is most clear. The miracles attest to that; people travel all over Brazil to go to that church to be healed; they're desperate, and they're finally willing to give God a chance. What will it take for you to give Him that chance, quedula?
Jesus told his follower Thomas that he believed that He was raised from the dead because he saw Him, but a man is blessed when he doesn't see and yet believes. Jesus ponders elsewhere if, when He returns, He will find faith on the earth. God is looking for faith. He's given enough evidence of Himself, but He's not going to appear in Copenhagen and make a press statement. Without faith, it is impossible to please God. If you don't want that faith, then you won't believe, no matter how much evidence I present. That's a scary place to be, because you'll have no one but yourself to blame when the last day comes, and you have to give an account for your life.
Guillame,
You made a statement in the second paragraph, "the goodness of an action is measured in the effect it has here, not in an hypothetical Heaven"; where is your evidence to back that up? How can you make an absolute, metaphysical statement like that without an absolute authority to set the standard? Have you any evidence that Pat's claims are wrong? Why should Pat or anyone else have to go through full ontological apologetics everytime they want to make a public statement? You have yet to defend your belief in the non-existence of God; should I require you to do that before you post further?
Why must we acknowledge an injustice to show support for the Haitians? Pastors from the US recognized the disaster in New Orleans as God's judgement as well, and the majority of aid for the city came from churches. If my son burns his hand because he was touching the stove, I'll still make sure he knows that the burn was his fault so he won't do it again as I bandage him up.
I've been using the Bible all along to explain Pat's words. That will always be the standard here on this blog. My faith is what has taken the blinders off my eyes, enabling me to see clearly. It's the vitriol and condescension I see coming from the other side that is truly blinding
You are very gullible Drasticontrast. Be happy.
gullible: easily deceived or duped.
Does it look more like someone pulled one over on me, or that I came to these conclusions myself? My opinions are my own, through meditation and study. I have been defending them for 15+ years; nothing about it has been easy.
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